E15- Negotiation Strategy with Fotini Iconomopoulos

In this episode, Jamie sits down with negotiation expert Fotini Iconomopoulos to discuss the art of negotiation and how it can be applied to the mortgage industry. Fotini shares tips on how to effectively negotiate with lenders, clients, and industry partners including preparing for the negotiation, understanding their perspective, and knowing your own limits. They also discuss common negotiation pitfalls and how to avoid them. Whether you're a seasoned mortgage broker or just starting out, this episode is full of valuable insights on negotiation that you won't want to miss.

Fotini: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/fotiniiconomopoulos

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Transcript

this is how to be a mortgage broker or we investigate the mortgage topics you need to accelerate your business and become an expert in this Dynamic industry

 I've recently added the Canadian mortgage add calculator to my website and I can't tell you how much I love these my website for this has tripled since I had their powers consumers who want to be in control of their process and budget and it's a great way to retain clients and boost my Osseo ice finally have a great landing page for the term mortgage calculator Search terms in the mortgage industry I'm happy to announce that my favourite submission platform velocity is now sponsoring the podcast I love velocity for so many reasons but especially some of the new features we can use it as a CRM or we can sync it with an existing Sierra but not only that the reports feature is really slick and minutes you can generate a report of all of your variable rate mortgage by providing ongoing communication for bank account about updates and Market

 for more information about this and more check out Newton. See a forward slash velocity I have a very exciting guess today I am so honored to introduce ft TV icon him off the list today I choose nickname The Negotiator is a child but she has been honing her skills for entire life she's a highly sought-after expert who advises Executives around the world to get better deals and train their teams to negotiate more effectively but she needs an instructor and NBA's program at York University School of Business and she has guests left at many other leading universities and I was in fact so blown away I recently with her amazing presentation at the National Mortgage professionals conference in Vancouver last fall but I read her book a couple of times I have it here there's a lot of little notes and tabs on it so yes Beyond excited to have a teeny on the show Welcome Bottini

 thank you so much for having me I'm thrilled to be talking to an audience who I know uses a Goshi ation skills all the time

 DSM thankfully for me I didn't have to negotiate with you to my I was fully planning on meeting to have a plan in place to get you on so I was very excited when you when we go shoot up the entire process of negotiating that collaborative negotiator and general people don't assume that but right now it sounds like you have a very exhilarating career with all of the presenting and the guest appearances teaching so what does an average day if you have an average day with that kind of look like for you I mean there's no such thing as an average day but an average we could be all over the place it could be hopping on a plane and going to Vancouver or Dallas or some other place it could be doing a guest lecturer at a university like I have next week it could be I do a lot of podcast and TV appearances virtually now as well as an average date certainly has changed now thanks for the virtual world and

 it also includes sometimes doing workshops like an intensive 6 hour days on camera with clients who are training their teams and small intimate groups and giving one-on-one feedback with folks so that's I think what has kept me doing this for eight years is that it's so different every day I'm not one for monotony things virtually as well so hopefully you get some time to do some virtual stuff from warmer climates than what we're currently in some of that to its 2022 was a great year for travel for me because I got to do it for pleasure and just bring my work along with me that I haven't been able to do in the past strategy seemed either David or that they would seem very unnatural for me to use so when I read your book say less get more it's the unconventional negotiation techniques to get what she

 want I just felt so relieved and connected to the advice that you teach so what is it that inspired you to write this book until the year the word relieved because it was actually I wasn't so much inspired as I was asked to harpercollins stop video with me online and came knocking and said we think you've got a book in you and I was okay but why there's a zillion negotiation books out there and they said we think you just have a voice that people need to hear cuz my voice was different the my name was different my look was different and so what I found over the years was I was getting advice from a lot of men who were a lot older than me and he looks are obviously quite different than me and you had names that sounded much easier to roll off the tongue ring mine and it wasn't working I found out through trial and error and then once I realized the errors I started doing more research on women in negotiating and I started realizing why some of that advice just wasn't working for me until my mission became to find tips and tricks that would work for me personally and when

 well if it works for me a name that no one can pronounce the woman who looks too young to be doing what she's doing a woman who has met with skepticism for any number of reasons then it should work for everybody else and I didn't want to be that person who giving advice that doesn't work I didn't want to put someone in a position where they found themselves tripping over their own you know words and so on so that's always what I've been doing and someone noticed it and that's when they went we need to bring this to the masses so I was flattered to be able to do it and it gave me a huge level of satisfaction to be able to go how do I help people who aren't in my MBA classes who aren't able to get to work those corporations to spend a lot of money on training and development how do you help people in their everyday lives achieve what they want to achieve without feeling like they're dreading it so if I can take some of that dread awaited my job done it's so true and you kind of mention that in the book to house fear and negotiation there's an emotional tie there and definitely one of the things that could bring more

 cheer up when you're going into negotiation process is if you were completely unprepared and unaware of what you're walking into that there were some other things that kind of come up for people is fearful when they're going into these types of negotiations yeah interesting Lee I started asking people years ago when I was running these intensive workshops cuz they're small intimate groups when I'm training for a corporation even though you and I might have met in the massive Ballroom I get to spend time one-on-one with folks and ask them to question before we even kick-off what is your biggest fear when it comes to negotiating and there's two things that come up and one is you know leaving money on the table and looking stupid for not going after what they could have achieved but the other really big one that comes out of every single person's mouth is damaging relationships and I suspect for women or anybody in a different disadvantaged groups that's an even bigger fear than anybody who comes to her more privileged or less biased group because we are going to be treated differently but there's a bigger risk of people assuming you're going to be greedy or

 see or aggressive or any of those ugly words that come out when people assume that you shouldn't be asking for this right now and so that is a huge driver of what holds people back from negotiating and so part of what I wanted to do in the how I want open up people's eyes was to say you don't have to be labeled as aggressive to get what you want you can be quite polite and diplomatic and still have fruitful negotiations and get what you want out of this and so I was thinking your world especially you can't be a mortgage broker you can't be in any field really we're in nearly any field where you're going to go in there and treat something is transactional and I'm never going to see them again so it's fine if you want to bang your fist on the table if you never want to do that person again but if you're doing that and you expect to have relationships maybe someone is going to give you a referral maybe a lawyer he's going to want to deal with you again maybe somebody who's going to be exchanging business with you in some way over and over again it's not going to go very well if you go in there pounding your fist on the table but you can build relationships

 and you can still get what you want and most people are pretty shocked by that statement is true and being as mortgage agents like you said there were having so many negotiations each day with our clients are Underwriters lenders broker owners appraisers solicitors like the list goes on so how can we discern and I think you touched on it just there cuz we discern between the me to go see a shinai and the weed negotiation so the me to go stations are quite transactional they're very short-term and they're usually focused around quantitative things so it's usually around money maybe it's a mortgage rate in your case maybe it's the length of a term or something to that effect like I said that's attached to a transactional element the second you start layering and other things on top of that quantity that's not to say that the price of the cost issue goes away but you start to lay around other things and now that cost becomes only one piece of the giant pie if you will if I know

 but when you start to his lair that in and you'll a word relationships and other values and referrals and terms and conditions and ease of working together and still on now all the sudden you get to these we negotiations and you have to be more mindful of well how extreme is Extreme how far do I push what's my demeanor going to be like there and when you find yourself in certain situations where you're not even talk about price anymore you're talking about how do we work around some of those policies how do we work around those terms and conditions what are some of the solutions that we can come up with for this individual this client and so on what are the work around that is a very collaborative negotiation and you're not letting us are we going to get very far if you go in there being demanding but if you go in there being curious if you go there asking questions if you go in there being mindful of the relationship that states year well then you're going to get people who are looking for ways to work with you versus against you and that's where I find people have the most Career Success is when they have that sweet thought of understand

 okay I might not be quite as aggressive on this number thing because I know the next 10 to go stations going to be super important and so I'm going to solidify that relationship and get to a problem-solving opportunity and that'll pay off for me in the long run but it's finding that balance that I think is so difficult for people but most of the time when you look outside of just the price you the older is more value here there is opportunity for some type of medium to long-term gain and it's an attitude or nothing that is reciprocated on the other side where people I get out I want to find a way to work with you that's a really good point because I hear a lot of Agents I see posts or get questions where they're trying to understand how to move their client or the potential client away from that you know Angels question of what's your rate and one of the things that you're staying here is just kind of open up the conversation ask more questions

 get more information to base off of so that you can add more value to the conversation and get away from that we didn't mean to Goshi ation no more into a we a collaborative one because the client comes in with that mindset so how do we turn a flip that conversation around yeah so I'm glad you brought that up because when it comes to price I mean it's going to be an inevitable piece of a lot of negotiations but what I always tell my clients when I'm working in the corporate field I'm actually strategizing with clients on their high-stakes negotiations whether the negotiating with a huge Global retailer or an airline or credit card company our bank before you put your proposal on the table when someone asks for example in your world what's your rate you need to manage their expectations before that number comes on the table and when I say manage expectations it's around well what else is involved in that right what are their value propositions are involved there how credible are you and so on what kind of I don't know if it's guarantees per se but service levels and things like that

 are you putting on the table what else is going to differentiate you outside of just that price how can you manage your expectations to make them go all of course price like that is going to come up because I'm getting all this other stuff along with that but the second you put price out there first and go but here's all the reasons why you should be working with me with that price point they party Tunes you out there so distracted by the pricing there in transaction mode but if you can get them in that relationship out if you can manage their expectations to go here's all the reasons why you want to work with me and by the way here's my price the order of those two things is what is going to turn their brain on or off and so when you're putting your all of those expectations on the table before the price comes up do you are positioning yourself for Success when you put the price out there first and then your listing all of those reasons why your prices are you are justifying things and when you are justifying your inevitably in a perceived place of weakness so it's only the order in which you do things is incredibly

 important it sounds like a silly my new detail but it makes a world of difference in terms of how their brains respond reminds me of the part of your book where you're talking about a study of it happen and be a student at two schools in the US and some of the groups were told time is money get straight to business and the other groups were told before you begin negotiating exchange some personal information with each other identify a similarity that you have in common and then begin negotiation and the results were staggering yeah I mean that takes it one step further so you can do the whole you know expectation stuff and still get down to business right away like if you were to call me on a zoom it's okay well we have 30 minutes for this meeting okay so here's all the reasons why you should work with me and here's my price or someone else takes two of those 30 minutes and goes I hate you been to Vancouver I've been to Vancouver isn't that interesting that we have that in common now all the sudden there's a smile on your face and a smile in your brain that goes I want to find reasons to work with this person I want

 find a way to connect with this person I've taken away some of that fear of the unknown who is this person that I don't know and don't trust and now I've opened up your mind to wanting to find ways to listen more attentively to the offer that is coming on the table all because we just spent a few minutes finding a little bit in common and dissipating that fear of the unknown of the members reached an agreement but in the group that took the time to communicate in 90% close the deal and with 18% more volume let's say over or Deals they were better deals all because they spent a few minutes just getting to know each other and so if we take that into where we started this conversation today about how we're doing so much more the virtual world when you think about face-to-face meetings that you might have had in the past you show up to someone's office you get there a few minutes early you're sitting in the reception area having a chat with the person who's behind the reception desk the person is coming up to meet you come.

 maybe they're smiling as they walk towards you they asked if you want a glass of water you have some chit-chat about the weather while you're on the way to the border that all happens in a short amount of time it's just a few minutes and now in this Zoom world we click on the camera and assume we have to get started right away we've lost that relationship building momentum and so when you have that only that 30 minutes or 15 minutes or however long you have you need to build in that likability factor type that extra 2 minutes just to find something in, it just to get to know each other just as smile with a little bit of extra warmth because you don't have those additional moments that happened in those face-to-face meeting and it sounds so silly but that can make a world of difference between you know someone feeling really comfortable with you or feeling very defensive in kg and transactional with you so could be as simple as asking a question when you start the conversation yeah it could be oh what's that book I see in the background there or you know it looks like a lot of family photos around have a big family at home are the kids going crazy or you wouldn't want

 zoom in another room it could be anything just to you know get the conversation going like ability again I mean but the here's the mistakes often people make when it comes to likability people assume too often that likability comes from giving people everything that they want well I'll just give them this extra saying this extra proposition this extra percentage this extra hit on my bottom line because I don't want them to hate me because I don't want to lose this deal and what ends up happening is you get people really greedy you just feed them and feel them and if you're dealing with them over and over again the way you would with some of the people in your industry you're likely to create this person who next time goes well it was really easy last time so let's see how much more I can get out of this person and now as a result of that you need to tame the Beast that you created I mean it's like spoiled children you give them everything they want and they go berserk but if it was about Andres the hair now the

 you have a long-term strategy with them now I love that and again when we're working with clients to were hoping that we're going to have referrals and something coming back in your referral or reviews that those types of things so we are reliant on building good relationships with people with a client that were working with

 if you're still using Excel to work out your refinance analysis for clients let me tell you there's a much better way you going to try to refinance analyser on the Canadian mortgage at this feature will change your life in B you can develop complex debt consolidation scenarios analyze savings break-even points cash flow and save time I mean how to pull them out of time but not only that the report firstly branded cheat for professional and easy to understand you can find out more on the mortgage app, you can go and find out how you can make this work for your business

 I want to get into a little bit more of the strategy part of negotiation and specifically I think one of the first things that we need to think about it are defining the issues so why is that so important in negotiation strategy and is that sort of the first step when your kind of coming up with a plan knowing the issues is what are your issues first and foremost what is that you want to get out of this and I don't just mean you know I need to get x amount of profit in my pocket it's going I need to get the maximum profitability and what is that highest and lowest that I think I can get out of this how far do I think I can push the other person how much you know do I think I can stretch myself on these other things that might come up because usually people go I just got to get the most I can what is that most actually look like what are you willing to also give up or what are those no negotiations owns that you're saying I'm not going to touch so understand your objectives and your limits going in

 and then slip the table around Google what are they trying to get out of this and if you really spend a few minutes thinking about it they want more than just the best price there's more to it even when you're talking about clients who are out there hunting for the best mortgage rate they're looking for more than that right now a lot of folks are underwater because they didn't realize it was some of their variable raised all of a sudden their monthlies are ballooning with an increasing interest in one of those lucky few who thought about some of those terms and conditions that I have a really great broker who walk me through it and said hey make sure that this is the point where you know the Tipping Point where your things going to go up maybe you want to think about what does that look like in the long-term what are your short-term goals by asking those types of questions of me he helped me to understand too well I don't want to be guessing what is my mortgage going to look like every single month or whatever the rate goes up and so on when you understand what are their goals what are the objectives it's going to make you much better inform to create a package that they're going to want to say yes to it's also going to help

 prepare for what questions might come up people are really predictable creatures at the end of the day and you've been through so many of these transactions so many of these you know these conversations that you can probably anticipate some of the problematic questions that are going to come up so you plan for those to know what you want to get out of it flip it around and think what do they want to get out of it and that will lay the foundation for the rest of your negotiation process now that's great I tried to lift some in the book here just to kind of go along so for the client issues I came up with a couple money best rates of course but another issue is sort of knowledge like the lack of knowledge of what's available with their maximum purchase price is so qualifying is another issue that they might have communication between a realtor the lawyer the broker that the more were communicating with each other as professionals that the easier it is on the client lack of time to get financing sometimes these are Rush purchases that they didn't get pre-qualified beforehand and they're closing dates coming up

 one that I have run into some times is the trust issue so I think that's something that we should think about a lot of Brokers is some clients or some people if they don't know you through referral source or even if they do there could be a layer of distrust so that's something that we need to consider and then not understanding what a broker is as simple as that you can work on that trust by also identifying the fact that they are thinking about their risk so if you say to them hey here's some of the risks I've anticipated for you again just like you mapped out your own objectives in your own risk if you can do the same for them and go hear some of the risks that might be going through your mind right now you might be worried about a mortgage rate that's going to go up and down you might be worried about how we going to qualify for your next mortgage five years from now or two years from now or next year and so on and if you are now starting to identify my risk its proceed to me as a very generous gift and now all the sudden if

 you're looking out for me I may trust you even more and that's going to make it so much easier to choose you over to someone else or choose you more efficiently than dragging this out and asked you a million more question so you are in charge of making this a more efficient negotiation by addressing the other person's risk and increasing the trust factor between you and you keep and what you hold back or what you give and what you in terms of the information that you have does it kind of play into that a little bit with building trust absolutely so in the book and in my lectures I talked a lot about information sharing and if you're not getting something from someone if you go why are they holding back from you may want to look in the mirror and go well am I giving them anything because this is a reciprocal practice in order to get trust you have to give trust and at the same time you're also balancing well how do I make sure I don't share something that could give them an advantage to hold over me and take advantage of it so I would identify what are all

 pieces of information here that I know and then put them into categories what information is safe for me to share and actually may be beneficial for me to share what information when I get a hold back until we have a little bit more trust between us and I gauge whether or not they would use this against me and what information in the third category is going to be completely off-limits no matter what this is like they do not share it's a secret recipe you know the family secrets all of that kind of stuff that goes in the vault and it never comes out and sometimes just in the act of sharing something with them maybe even something they already know you can build trust with that because you're giving that perception that you're somebody who is forthcoming with information again they may know it but they go okay well they're alerting me to this that's a good sign what else can the alert me to and you may start seeing exchange because I keep mentioning this word reciprocity we are wired our brains are wired to marry each other when you do something nice I feel like I have to do something nice for the door

 I feel like I have to say thank you if you offer me a coffee I might offer you something like a glass of water if you send me a Christmas card now I feel like I need to send you a Christmas card because this is what was Bob location to one another so if you share some information even something I already know I now feel like I should be sharing some information with you too and now we're creating this exchange of information in this reciprocity of trust that that benefit the both of us know I love that and I remember that in the book too but if you then I statements in a collaborative negotiation it really comes in handy I'm trying to think of ways that I could use that with a client I'm not sure on the client side of things but definitely with Realtors lawyers and that type of thing I can think of a lot of different ways we could use those sentences like if we need a rush appraisals on or something like that even in the language of If you deny is creating this reciprocity and the order is for those who

 sing the orders really important if you haven't read the book it's making sure you take care of your needs first and then finishing with their names cuz I know it sounds like a gift instead of a punishment so with a client I be thinking hey if you can get me that information by the end of the day then I can turn this around 24 hours I love that little ways to again just coerced him into being more efficient in making your life a lot easier right so you're negotiating for your time you're not a sailing saying that I'm hate I'm proposing you save me five hours if you can get me this one piece of information and they do all the digging and they searched and so on then I can percentage of this bang if not sorry you'll be much more successful you'll get a better rate that's a really good I think I've used that accidentally before or after so many documents nowadays so sometimes they'll say if you send me all of these documents it ensures that I can send it to all of the different lenders or we have all of the different letters

 available to US versus some lenders might not need that particular item but then we're kind of closing the door on that so very kind of leaves our options open until we do it all the time if you can take it one step further and just frame it as a gift to them if you can give me this document then I can increase your odds of getting an even better rate I can shop it how many more people and get you an even better deal those are the things that people are going to latch on to suggest that they go all I want to work really hard for that gift if it's so gross but so good I can't wait to use that one little bit to about communication especially well for us a lot of sex me to getting on the phone or Zoom or email and you had a really interesting part in your book with a Curt like Kurt email to dearest person perhaps in the office and I find I write emails very similarly I'm not very flowery with my language.

 straight to the point but without really considering how it might look to somebody reading it on the other side like we've all read the email within 2 nation of cancel this do this thank you Jamie so you talk a little bit about how being mindful about your messages and maybe adding a few words can really help and sounds counterintuitive in terms of the title of the book which is more but this is where I'd say it's going to save you an extra five back and forth right so if you can anticipate that okay I can do it this way and I'm going to have to chase her with three more emails to get this thing that I need or I can add a few extra words here and I think I did a count in the book I think it's only like 60 words are doing that and so if I can at least forty words now it's going to save me five more emails in the future and it's just pressing that pause to go what does this person need from me right now what are their expectations In This Moment

 because the truth of the matter is we have different expectations of different people so I was in an organization where I was the only female consultant I was certainly a lot younger than the rest of the the crew and my emails look exactly the way my colleagues emails did but I didn't get the same response rate because she was anticipating especially because whenever I was in the office I was super warm and saying hello and chit chatty and so on and that her expectation was that would be extended into my emails and one of my email sounded just like everybody else is on the road because when we were on the road it was like you have a five-minute pee break it go to the bathroom I didn't email to check all of these things and to shove it all muffin down your throat because there's no other time so when you're doing all of that of course your emails are going to be short and to-the-point but I found that just taking that extra time to go hey hope you're having a great day I would really love your help on something I think you might be able to help me with something that makes me feel really good to go do they need my help instead of please do this

 and so just doing that all the sudden I got much better responses and I got better response rates and then everybody else and I didn't have to chase things down so it really did in the moment it felt really trying but it saved me so many future chasing email like a whatever happened with that did that thing get done versus her being able to send me an email going to hit confirm so and so just replied back and we're all good for next week so do you find that over all that works for everyone or do you sort of because there's a part in the book two were you knowing the importance that are being able to adapt your tactics in your salad accordance with who you're dealing with in this is Tina we might go from talking to a client who's been referred to us for a cold call off of Google versus you know someone that were working with that a man or something like that so how do you gauge what type of person you're talking to and how that's going to affect your style so I would say there are a few rules of thumb that I'll always start with like it again it I won't get down to business

 immediately and that's going to be super important for someone that I know if I can add a layer in it's like a sandwich right so you want to have the bread is the warm and fuzzy stuff and then the meat is the okay here's my proposal and then the bread on the bottom is the warm-and-fuzzy close as well as the call to action and so whether it's a with a cold negotiation like cold call from an incoming Gmail a Google thing or someone who's coming from a referral if I've got that referral it's an advantage because I know I can mention something in that first part about Oso and so said such wonderful things about you or I'm so thrilled that we are connected from you know this individual and so that's a great way to bridge that fear of the unknown thing and then here's what I would love to talk about with you today and then you can get into the meeting someone when is a cold call I would still do something there to go hope things are great over on the west coast we're having a big cold spell over here on the east side of her seems mild temperatures on the east

 just a little bit of something to go to acknowledge I know who you are you're not a complete stranger to me maybe I've got a quick Google search or something and you may also know if you know something about the individual not everybody wants a lot of that warm and fuzzy stuff for some people just said hope you're having a great week or hope your week is off to a great start or for all of January was happy 2023 hope your year is starting off great any of those things for other people they want a lot more of that so some people love but thank you email thanks so much for getting that done or some people just go stop clogging my inbox with thank-yous know about those individuals the more you can and cater your approach but the general formula of warmth meet and then some more of that again will be a good recipe for success and then most people often overlooked that last piece that last bit of warm because if you leave them with just this cold shower of here's what I want from you that doesn't feel really great but if you can finish with is there something that

 I can do to help you or when's a good time to follow up on this is there anything that I may have missed in terms of what you are looking for that question of trying to engage them in a way that says I'm thinking about you now all the sudden will get a much greater response rate than going looking forward to hearing your thoughts or just going here's a proposal thanks for teeny it's important how you finish just as much as how you start okay no I really like that too and I'm thinking at the very end of your book I'm hoping that everyone reads the stuff honestly because I think there's just so much in there there's a few key points in here that I want the listeners to kind of take away with and one of them is you know what am I leaving on the table in my life what's holding me back from getting what I want which of the tools in this book will help me get there and who can I lean on for support I love those questions I'm going to go through and ask myself that as I have before I read the book again

 what do you have for the key takeaway I guess for us Brokers listening what's the most important thing that we can learn from reading this book gosh in general I would help people learn how to shut up and listen you don't press the pause at saying last means listening to the other person I'd say for broker specifically it's asking yourself that question of who am I dealing with right what are their fears what are their concerns when you are talking to a client this is probably one of the most stressful times in their lives I bought multiple properties not negotiated a number of mortgages but I still remember that first one it was scary as hell and so you can be that person that they trust you can be that guy who's going to know get multiple I work in my mortgage broker number of times I've referred him to people who are thrilled with him and so on so you can be that person who's now with them through the most stressful times in their life over and over again you can be the one that is having a great relationship with a lender

 car with a lawyer and so on who will also want to work with you and go you know I don't know where all your referral come from but I suspect they come from every single point of your business process that you touch and so who am I dealing with what is keeping them up at night what is stressing them out right now I know it sounds like you're thinking more about them than you are about you but we know you're going to think about you we know you're going to cover up your can you consider what is the other party dealing with right now and that will win you a lot of business it'll win you a lot of trust it'll win you a lot of relationships which means it'll win you a lot of what you want to get out of this this process is well okay thank you so much that's really great advice and I think that I have a lot to think about it a lot to learn about in our next conversation if you are doing any challenges in the next couple of weeks but then call it a challenge or talking to Realtors trying to expand your network take a lot of these tips in mind and equip yourself so that you're paired to

 negotiation or how would you say that's a win-win right well I mean in an ideal world everybody wins but it's more like how do you get the most out of this how do you get what you want out of this yeah I agree thank you so much I'm so happy that you're on here today my pleasure have a great day thank you for listening to how to be a mortgage broker if you love the show follow us and please leave us a review if you have questions or suggestions for the show or like the future guess just email me at Jamie at mortgages by Jamie. Com Jamie at mortgages by Jamie